From:  digitalfredy <digitalfredy@gmail.com>
Date:  24 Feb 2015 05:59:14 Hong Kong Time
Newsgroup:  news.mozilla.org/mozilla.community.uganda
Subject:  

Re: [Webmaker] [Reps-General] [mozillians] Words from a Mozillian Part II

NNTP-Posting-Host:  63.245.216.66

My point of view is easy to understand whit this example, If Remo is
community-driven because we can chose council members and we have
spaces like Remo Camps, then our countries are citizen-driven because
we can chose politicians and we have participative tools. so this
world is perfect related with politics/decision making.

In other words, representative structures can't guarantee a true
representation,  their decision making is not a mirror from  the base,
and we will not resolve it in a mailing list discussion, until now we
are using this structure because we don't now how to made works
something more horizontal and distributed.

If you have a problem with the 7+2 power concentration you can propose
another structure but I think it is realistic because in a more
distributed structure the problem is that no much people have time or
interest in to exercise their power. is also more complex and require
more effort.

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Guillermo Movia
 wrote:
> Hi Fredy (comments inline)
>
> El 21/02/15 a las 17:32, digitalfredy escibió:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I think we have the same problem that in countries democracy, we know
>> that something is bad but most people is not working on a fix, a few
>> will raise their voices to exprime their inconformity and blame about
>> others without pointing a "right" path.
>>
>> As in countries democracies most people aren't interesting in the
>> decision making architecture, we want just to be customers using a
>> program "well designed" by others and when we try to participate we
>> don't found tools to do it and/or we have language barriers because
>> english is not our first language. I think we can learn from Open
>> Source Software using repositories to manage our program architecture
>> definition, SOPs ... but honestly I think no much people will use this
>> tools.
>>
>> Just now we have a restricted wiki but we can't fork it to experiment
>> and propose changes, this is a very vertical project but is working in
>> the fact that we are getting resources for events.
>>
>> I think must uf us, we are expecting (dreaming) things like
>> distributed decision making, consensus ... because that match with out
>> values but in the other hand people payed by Mozilla are
>> results-oriented. In practice we can't be more that endusers for this
>> program using it AS-IS because we don't have resources (money/time) to
>> rebuild the program architecture to match with our values and we don't
>> know if doing it the program will really works.
>>
>> If resources allocation is working why not simply remove the
>> "community-driven" propaganda and find a better why to talk about the
>> 7+2 power concentration
>> (https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReMo/Structure_Governance)?
>>
>
> Probably this program doesn't match your "community-driven" criteria,
> but call it propaganda seems too much. Since the beginning, like Majken
> wrote in other email, members of the community work in the design of the
> project, and since then, lots of community members were mentors and part
> of the council, taking decisions and moving the project forward.
>
> In my point of view, that is community driven. Yes, we don't work in
> consensus with all the reps. Maybe in the future, but taking all
> decisions by consensus seems quite difficult.
>
> And like many others says, lot of the changes in the program were taken
> in Remo Camps (were not only council members go) and by open and public
> changes proposals in the mailing list. So your 7+2 power concentration
> is not quite right.
>
> Dependency on the language is a problem, but that's is a global problem,
> not only a Mozilla one.
>
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Sofien Chaabouni
>>  wrote:
>>> This is not mainly people like WilliamQ, Pierros, Brian or Ruben who were
>>> the cause of what is happening now! but can be the choice of goals (one
>>> million, and firefoxOS webmaker) that have imposed changes and swapping
>>> positions!
>>>
>>> The Reps program was exactly what Mozilla is looking for to give volunteers
>>> a status also to organize financially their activities. Although the
>>> success pushed William and Pierros to review the program and try to adapt
>>> it to the coming ... ( The huge number of Reps, the appearing of Firefox OS
>>> and Webmaker )
>>>
>>> In the meantime, Mozilla launched the "OneMillion" goal that was (for me) not
>>> really the best time to do it. for several reasons ( The lack of tools and
>>> programs to achieve this goal ). This same goal caused that WilliamQ and
>>> Pierros will not continue their adventure to "fix" the Reps Program then
>>> they joined the CBT (that vanished recently for reasons I ignore). With all
>>> the work they had, it was hard to find time to mentor the new leaders of
>>> the Reps program which caused the malfunction of today and it's not Brian
>>> nor the council's fault.
>>>
>>> I am aware that the program is not fully transparent but there has to be
>>> some ideas and suggestions to help (and I am certain that no one can tell
>>> you not to)
>>>
>>> 2015-02-19 19:49 GMT+01:00 Dicky Moe :
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone this is Dicky Moe, again. We are sad to join again and
>>>> write up. We just want to make some points clear before you dig yourself in.
>>>>
>>>> We went anonymous not because we are afraid. There is no reason for us to
>>>> be!
>>>>
>>>>   # Mozilla its paying for our daily bread, but it does provide us
>>>> community spirit which is vital for Mozillians because once mozillian you
>>>> are mozillian forever, we don’t want a bunch of dictators ruin what we’ve
>>>> all stood up for.
>>>>
>>>>   # If you still want us to reveal our names that would be the last thing
>>>> the community want to get. (Black spread faster and  easily, but hard to
>>>> wash )
>>>>
>>>>   # Most people have got themselves in trouble raising the community
>>>> issues and finally end up leaving the community. We are not ready for that!
>>>> At Least not before completing the projects we took up.
>>>>
>>>> We have seen volunteers & Staffs leaving Mozilla and joining organizations
>>>> that totally opposes the Mozilla mission, Internal issues are the main
>>>> cause whatever they post on blogs or statements is just for personal
>>>> satisfaction because Mozilla has been diffused in the blood. Let's hope it
>>>> doesn't happen to most of us. Please spend less time scrutinizing the
>>>> literature and immature use of caps or grammar and choice of file sharing
>>>> program :) Instead, please read and reflect on the issues being raised.
>>>>
>>>> We don't feel overwhelmed by all the responses against our mail. It's
>>>> easier to speak in support. And since our previous mail sounded a little
>>>> immature with all the caps, special effects and background score. People
>>>> are probably thinking that they are all just lies and uncalled for.
>>>>
>>>> But keep in mind that for every person who expressed an opinion against
>>>> our action, there are many who shared our view and let us know their
>>>> support through PM, but are just afraid to speak out publicly. One of the
>>>> most abused sentences in the Mozilla community is “this is an open
>>>> community”. Well, we hate to break it to you: it is not!
>>>>
>>>> Lets began......  ( TO LONG PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME TO READ )
>>>>
>>>> [1]MozFest
>>>> -----------------
>>>> Did the council lose all their fingers or keys on the keyboard,
>>>> we/community had not received any reply for the concerns raised...? “The
>>>> Selection process”.
>>>>
>>>> We are shocked to see the council not keeping its own words, waiting for
>>>> the 2-3 Sentence explanation for the persons selected. Can we expect the
>>>> answer before Mozfest 2015.?
>>>>
>>>> We never thought we needed to look here, but, we were forced to, after the
>>>> so called ‘qualified reps’ according to the Reps Council who attended the
>>>> Mozfest weren’t doing what they were intended to do after all, the
>>>> following links proves it
>>>> http://priyankaivy.blogspot.in/2014/10/my-last-two-cents-to-mozilla-india.html
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> If so happened then why were those reps invited….?
>>>> (Thanks Priyanka for sharing, hope you won’t remove it. In case if the
>>>> above link is not available by the time you read it, here is a screenshot
>>>> of it https://www.sendspace.com/file/sdslcw )
>>>>
>>>> Congrats you just made the majority of hardworking Mozillians made look
>>>> fool because those selected were enjoying London it seems. Do you still
>>>> have anything to say about this?
>>>>
>>>> [2]Reps Council
>>>> ----------------------
>>>>
>>>> As always Reps program has managed to stay as the headquarters of problems
>>>> or the tensions. We are very sad to see the heading of the Reps program.
>>>>
>>>> The work of WilliamQ & Pierros to help community reach Mozilla faster was
>>>> superb, but we have to say, my friends, you have failed to manage it or
>>>> take it forward. We have no objections to your actions and idea of Reps but
>>>> you are still responsible for transferring unaccountable control to people
>>>> who weren’t up for the task - manage and guide the community.
>>>>
>>>> Community management is a very tough task, In an organization like Mozilla
>>>> It’s the only task that has to be dealt seriously after the Main Products.
>>>> We are sad for having to mention names and go personal here.
>>>>
>>>> We don't know what you guys do during the in-person meetings every time in
>>>> luxurious locations. There has never been any visible improvements in Reps
>>>> program in recent times. All we had is cursing from all directions and
>>>> volunteers leaving the program. The commitment of Reps program can be
>>>> measured just by looking at the number of people voting to select the
>>>> council member. People have just lost faith with more and more dictatorial
>>>> dominating the Reps program. The Reps program has given unlimited powers in
>>>> many decision making processes which make many mozillians hard to work with
>>>> all those diplomacy.
>>>>
>>>> Brian King, Ruben (we have a special section for you), Vineel, Gautham
>>>> Raj, Robert Bob Ryes, Mahay Alay Khan(MAK)  you guys are the worst
>>>> community persons anyone could have met. You have managed to ruin the
>>>> community by breaking the openness.  If you try to get yourself away
>>>> stating that you’re gonna improve from your current standing, it has no
>>>> meaning here. If/when replying, please keep bombast and rhetoric to their
>>>> minimum - in simple words, avoid BS; give facts.
>>>>
>>>> Brian King - The guy before Ruben, who have sat managing Mozilla Reps and
>>>> started the process of running the community. This guy simply haven't done
>>>> any sort of help when asked. Instead, he has sided with many community
>>>> members who claim themselves as “liaisons” or community leads(we wonder
>>>> what these guys have done other than having trips and getting the credits
>>>> of work done by others) especially in the Asian region and back stabbed
>>>> many other hardworking mozillians.
>>>>
>>>> Ruben - Scroll down bud, we haven’t reached yours yet.
>>>>
>>>> Robert Bob - You have been one hell of a pain for a lot of mozillians in
>>>> the community.  First of all, you have to understand Mozilla is not solely
>>>> yours and mind your language when talking to community members. You have
>>>> given very little respect and have taken direct word attacks in many mails
>>>> which has caused some uneasiness for many people.
>>>>
>>>> Vineel - We have heard from many community members how you  played
>>>> silently in the back and take credit for stuffs that you haven't even heard
>>>> of. You soap or sugar coats the Mozilla staffs a lot that no one dares say
>>>> anything even the community members. You have your group who gets to
>>>> represents mozilla for everything that involves luxury and make community
>>>> members look like fools. Don’t play nice because the truth can’t be hidden
>>>> for long. We guess there are more members who have left the community
>>>> because of your unflavored policies. You have been sticking and proclaiming
>>>> as the head of the regional community for long (Does any one know who made
>>>> him the lead, by the way). We have seen some great minds leaving from your
>>>> community, which you also seem to have left and yet your name still shows
>>>> up on every event Mozilla budgets, is it only us who see this…?
>>>>
>>>> And in general, we must have elections, choosing the head of the community
>>>> and one can’t simply sit forever and dictate with his buddies. This happens
>>>> in many communities, Vineel's dictator managed the first position in the
>>>> list making a perfect example for this email. MAK standing second, we’re
>>>> observing you too on this one. You have caused political divisions in
>>>> Bangladesh community. The domain issue and more... Ruben and more we are
>>>> watching all
>>>>
>>>> Gauthamraj - This guy is a Webmaker contractor now? We just don't know how
>>>> these people are qualified to do such works for Mozilla. These are not
>>>> posted anywhere. Was there any open call for this or anything on the
>>>> Careers page? Isn’t that how “Open” works?  Concerned authorities please
>>>> explain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [3]Mentor selection
>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>
>>>> As far we see each Rep has a mentor, but what we have no idea is who they
>>>> are and how they came to be one..? No official invitation or nomination
>>>> news in any of the lists.
>>>>
>>>> It seems like the one who is connected with a council get a position in
>>>> council- Political bribery?
>>>>
>>>> [4]Community IT
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>> Who the hell do you think you are Ruben..?.
>>>>
>>>> We know you have been with mozilla and community since 6+ years, all the
>>>> mozillians including you, have been breathing same mission so far, but
>>>> please bear in mind that Mozilla is not your Family Asset…? You might have
>>>> the veteran’s syndrome (
>>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Veteran%27s+Syndrome), you
>>>> should check that out.
>>>>
>>>> Congratulation for joining Reps Council, but don’t think you can establish
>>>> a dictatorship over a community that supports openness. As council we value
>>>> your action only in areas or the fields assigned to you, but that doesn't
>>>> mean you have the ultimate decision on any things other than the ones
>>>> stated to you.
>>>>
>>>> Your reactions to these areas have-not been fruitful to community with
>>>> communication, your replies in bug 1121901 (
>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1121901) especially the
>>>> reply in comment#11 has been very arrogant - the kind that people who
>>>> manage communities shouldn’t display. Not to mention the reaction at
>>>> https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/t/community-hosting-require-domain-ownership-transfering-to-mozilla/1448/2
>>>>
>>>> Learn to respect other mozillians! Or better yet, other humans in general.
>>>> Your works so far to Mozilla has been great, but you are doing more damage
>>>> than good now and you are trying your best to achieve a bad name to your
>>>> profile and you are being successful in that.
>>>>
>>>> [5]Reps application endorsement
>>>> -----------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Ruben, according to your comment, an applicant need to get endorsed on
>>>> his Reps application form, from those who vouched the applicant’s
>>>> mozillians profile. When did this new approach make?
>>>> Who made this decision? Did Mentors approve this? Did you inform to the
>>>> broader reps community about this stupid change?
>>>> What if the applicant gets vouches from a non-rep mozillian? How he can
>>>> endorse his vouchee’s application then? What if the voucher is no more
>>>> available. The unlucky applicant can’t be a rep?
>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1129695#c1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What we demand/request:
>>>>   # End the dictatorial working of Reps council and mentors. A clear
>>>> selection process for mentor selection and contesting in council has to be
>>>> implemented.
>>>>
>>>>   # An open way to kick a council /mentor/rep if he/she is unfit. Open
>>>> votes have to be taken against the council and mentors to reason if they
>>>> are working the way they should be. And this vote has to be public and not
>>>> in some hidden locker at the councils side desk.
>>>>
>>>>  # Mozilla is not just a Reps program and those who proclaim themselves as
>>>> the head has to understand that other mozillians also help in shaping the
>>>> Open Web. Try to respect everyone.
>>>>
>>>>  # Transparency in selection process. We have sent a doc in the last email
>>>> of how immature and biased the selection were for a regional level event.
>>>> Shame on you people.
>>>>
>>>>  # While having done the criticism, we also would like to thank Benjamin
>>>> Kerensa, Emma Irwin and Majken Connor for all the efforts they take in
>>>> making things more transparent. We just need people like you at the
>>>> important positions so that some inexperienced and closed minded people
>>>> don't end there, for example Ruben. We expect bold people like you to come
>>>> forward.
>>>>
>>>>  # Allow participation of all the volunteers in the decision making
>>>> process, irrespective of position - at least in the major decision making
>>>> process and in all cases.
>>>>
>>>> We are not here to make the organization look bad. We trust this
>>>> organization’s mission to the core and we are dreaming for a safe and open
>>>> web. But we can't achieve any, if the status continues. Lets constructively
>>>> discuss the above problems and not our literature or who we are.
>>>>
>>>> Many people have reached us (PM) claiming problems so if anyone feels
>>>> anything need to be addressed in open feel free to mail us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Fellow Mozillians
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mozillians mailing list
>>>> mozillians@lists.mozilla.org
>>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Chaabouni Sofien *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> reps-general mailing list
>>> reps-general@lists.mozilla.org
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/reps-general
>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReMo/SOPs/Mailing_List_Policy
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Guillermo Movia



-- 
ATT: Fredy Pulido López, +1 procurando un mejor mundo para todos.